Interview by Sophie HOGUIN for  ActuEL-HSE , online journal of Editions Législatives; information and subscription to publications of Legislative Editions here

It is with this image that Jack BERNON, head of the health and work department at ANACT qualifies this body today.
He returns for us to the lessons learned from the survey conducted for two years by the ANACT network on the CHSCTs and which for the first time took a look at the actual work of the body.

You are going to officially present the survey carried out by the ANACT on the CHSCT on the occasion of the 9th week of the quality of life at work, what is it about?

Jack Bernon : "This survey, conducted in collaboration with the University of Bordeaux (department of ergonomics of complex systems) consisted in examining the life of 27 CHSCTs. The originality of the survey stems above all from the fact that for the first time we were interested in the real work of the members of this institution. This required not only to listen to the words of the elected officials, of the presidents but also to follow them during their meetings, their visits, to analyze their accounts. returned etc. This represents a lot of time spent in the field. Our investigation questions not only the functioning of the body but also and above all its production, its results."

If you had to pick just one image from today's instance, what would you say?

JB : I would say that the CHSCT is an adult who has kept his children's shoes! In reference to a 30-year-old framework but with missions and subjects that have continued to expand. Indeed, in 30 years, the working environment has become complicated for the CHSCT, its scope has expanded, its means have not changed and at the same time the boundaries with the works council or the departments company health and safety fell out. It is more than necessary to redefine the framework of the CHSCT.

Your investigation led you to formulate several proposals on which you invite the social partners to reflect. Can you detail them for us?

JB . : Yes, we have organized them into several categories: CHSCT work framework, skills development for all members, tools and support for action. And we present them notably in our latest issue of Work and Change .

Framework: better define where and what?

JB .
: The CHSCTs were built on the basis of proximity. But today this proximity is no longer sufficiently relevant. At a time when the decisions that structure the organization of work are taken in the "Comex", at the level of the national managements or group managements, this central level often lacks a level of social dialogue on the working conditions. This level would also be an opportunity to network the various CHSCTs. For example, many large companies have adopted a matrix organization and certain decision-making stages are therefore not covered by the CHSCTs. And we can therefore ask ourselves: Where is the discussion and debate between the social partners on the organization of work taking place? As for the companies which have a hundred CHSCTs but which have never been in contact with each other, we can clearly see that there is a major dissymmetry between the decision-making concerning the organization of work and the places of debates established by law.

Skills of the actors: target all the actors and think about the content

JB . : "It is common to hear about the CHSCTs that staff representatives should be trained more/better... But, at the ANACT, we believe that this issue should be taken more globally and that the CHSCT as a legal person in which everyone must develop their skills, elected officials and presidents. The discourse on the subject also relates a lot to the time allocated to training, but it is rare to mention its content This is why we recommend changing the training of CHSCT actors towards modular training-actions - that is to say, in addition to the basic regulatory training on the operation of the CHSCT, modules to be followed separately and depending on needs on occupational accident investigations, or the integration of psychosocial risks, etc., thus constituting a real training course. In addition, it is necessary to provide training, tools for the presidents. Finally, we can also think about associate with training other resource actors who tend to act very individually with their own references (CARSAT engineers, labor inspectors, occupational physicians, etc.). Because the effective functioning of the CHSCT also requires a reflection on the synergy between the different approaches that sit there and a reflection on the working logics that prevail there.

The tools available to CHSCTs

 JB .
: "This is the great desert. In thirty years, the production of tools intended for the CHSCT is extremely low. We have therefore created a first tool for self-assessment of the action of the CHSCT. it also equips the CHSCT in their relations with the employees they represent. It must already be realized that many employees do not even know the CHSCT and its action often remains in the image of its composition. For example, if a company has 3 workshops and the CHSCT representatives only come from 2 of them, there is every chance that the CHSCT will work much less on the third.The initial representation is sometimes a little narrow and therefore very permeable to the influence of a director, a workshop foreman, trade unions, etc. We therefore recommend that the CHSCTs take stock of their actions and map out where they have gone, where they act. The CHSCTs often have few traces of their work and with each renewal, the work begins afresh. Not to mention the turnover of leaders or tensions between unions. The question also arises of the inclusion of the work of the CHSCT over time. The self-assessment tool should help with this identification over time.

You insist on the CHSCT as a body for social dialogue and not a technical one, why is that?

JB . : Many CHSCTs have taken on the role of prevention , but as a technical practice. We sometimes see them taking the place of a prevention service to draft the single document, to study the ergonomics or safety of workstations or to remind their colleges of the safety instructions. But that is not its role. It is heresy! Its place is that of an instance of social dialogue where we talk about real work, its organization. The prevention officer is a functional player, he advises the employer, while the CHSCT must take a step back from practices. That said, the regulatory texts themselves may raise questions, thus the visits of the CHSCT are called "inspection visits", but this designation creates mistrust in the departments visited and in management when, on the contrary, it is necessary to establish relationships of trust, of dialogue with this body.

directed by Sophie HOGUIN for ActuEL–HSE